Cultivating Super Fans and Authentic Connections with Your Audience

Matt Ebso: 0:08

Hello there, podcast listeners. I'm your host, matt Ebso, back with another exciting episode of After the Master of Musicians Guide. In this episode, I have the pleasure of chatting with the incredible Patrice Cochle, the mastermind behind the baseline group. Get ready for an insightful conversation as we dive into the world of branding, the challenges artists face and the future of music marketing, patrice shares her valuable insights and advice on how artists can navigate the industry and build a successful career. We'll discuss the importance of building a real fan base rather than just chasing vanity metrics like social media followers. Plus, we'll touch on topics like text message marketing, self-care, finding balance and adapting to the ever-changing music industry. As a reminder, I'm clearing out the backlog of episodes that need to finally see the light of day. I recorded this conversation in February 2022, almost two years ago as of the release date for this episode, so you might notice a few outdated references. However, the majority of this conversation should provide plenty of food for thought in 2024 and beyond. So grab your favorite cup of coffee, sit back and join us for this enlightening, inspiring conversation. Let's get started. I am here interviewing Patrice Coakley.

Matt Ebso: 1:29

Patrice is the founder and owner of the Baseline Group, where she serves as a talent manager, chief strategist and lead consultant, holding both a BS and MBA in marketing.

Matt Ebso: 1:41

Patrice took the entrepreneurial route to kick off her career by serving local small business owners, entrepreneurs, artists and entertainers for over 13 years. During that time, she gained practical experience in the areas of digital marketing, event coordinating, public relations, graphic design, web design and the music business, with her most notable client being Matthew Knowles, beyonce and Solange's dad and former manager. Patrice has been a featured speaker at Soho House, chicago 2112, chicago Urban League, lake Effects, chicago Social Media Week, chicago Sprout Social and other events. In addition to her work here at the Baseline Group, she was a product marketing and education specialist for music rights and publishing administration platform, tune Registry, contributing author for the latest music business textbook by Martin Atkins called Band Smart, and a college professor at SAE Institute, chicago for three years, where she taught entertainment marketing within the music business program and received the mentor of the Year Award in 2019. Lastly, she's been a branded bassidore for Lugs Footwear since 2016.

Matt Ebso: 2:50

Whoa, quite the resume. Welcome, oh, my goodness. Yeah, it probably sounds a lot listening back to it, doesn't it? It does Probably like wow, I did all that.

Patrice K. Cokely: 3:00

Yeah, yeah, that's the effect that it has on me every time I look at it or hear someone speak it.

Matt Ebso: 3:05

yeah, so good to be chatting with you. I wanted to start off by asking you wear a lot of hats. Did you always want to be a talent manager, strategist, consultant, or did it kind of evolve into that over time?

Patrice K. Cokely: 3:19

I would say it involved into that over time. I didn't know, since I was a kid, that I wanted to work in the music business, so I played the piano growing up in the bad boy Diddy Puff, Daddy Error, Uptown Records, Mary J Blotch, all of them that was starting to pop. A lot Like Biggie, I just love that whole era of music and I said you know what? I want to learn more about the music business. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I love the business side of music then. So it just kind of morphed into what I do now.

Matt Ebso: 3:50

Okay, and what is your typical day look like?

Patrice K. Cokely: 3:54

Yeah, I don't have a typical day. Honestly, every day is different, literally, and there's one of the things that I love about what it is that I do One day I could be scheduling content for myself or a client. The next day, I could be planning a release plan or schedule, coming up with a release strategy, a music video concepts, scouting locations whether it's on location, on site or digitally, online it really could vary. Publishing administration I like to call myself a walking label, like I'm a one woman label, literally, like there's a lot of things that I do, just simply because I've worked with artists that needed it. They needed someone to fill in these gaps, so it was like all right, I can learn it, let me help you by doing it. So every day is different. It depends on the artist and what's going on at that moment.

Matt Ebso: 4:42

Understandable, because artists have a lot of needs. There's so much to do and to organize and to plan, and so it sounds like you take on a lot of the responsibility for those artists and really help to make sure that everything that comes after the studio happens well. That is correct. So what are some of those things that you find yourself doing the most often for these artists?

Patrice K. Cokely: 5:05

Being a therapist.

Matt Ebso: 5:12

You know, I've been there too, in the studio yeah, in the studio too. And artists can't be creative until they feel like they've had a chance to like unload all the baggage from life, so I can see that carrying over to after the studio too.

Patrice K. Cokely: 5:26

Yeah, I would say that's what I do the most of, even though I'm not trained in that area. But, like you say, a lot of artists just need to unload in order to feel creative. They got to have someone that they can talk to and share things with, whether it's personally or professionally. I do a lot of that, especially when dealing with artists in their own insecurities. They have insecurities as well, and I get it. They're putting their baby out there. Their music is their child in a sense, and they're putting it out there to be consumed and it can be judged, and it's a lot, it's a lot of pressure. So I say I do that the most. But I know what you're asking though. So I know what you're asking.

Matt Ebso: 6:06

Okay, I can go to the answer too, I would say strategy.

Patrice K. Cokely: 6:10

I would say that's the most that I do coming up with the plan of action after the music is completed. And then, once we come up with this plan as far as what we're going to do and when, then it's a matter of who's going to do it. Are we going to hire someone to do it or are we going to bring it in house? So, with the therapist aspect, that would be a number one, number two strategy.

Matt Ebso: 6:31

Okay, say, a new artist comes to you, wants you to help them out with their music, with their project, with their marketing. So some of the things you start to pinpoint and organize Well, I first would like to get to know them.

Patrice K. Cokely: 6:46

I am real big on branding. That's one thing that sets me apart from everyone else. I'm a big advocate when it comes to branding. That's actually the reason why I call my company the baseline group, cause when you think of a song, the base is the foundation of the song. In my opinion and a lot of people will say it's the drums To me, I feel like it's the base and I feel like an artist brand is that their brand is the foundation to their career as an artist.

Patrice K. Cokely: 7:09

So when it comes to that, I like to get to know them and then structure an image and package them in a way that resonates with their intended audience, but it has to be authentic. So one of the first things that I do is I talk to them about their goals, what their interests are. Sometimes we don't even talk about music. Just what do you do?

Patrice K. Cokely: 7:28

From day to day, I'm getting to know them and then from there I start looking into what they already have and try to find some missing pieces. Maybe they need a new website, maybe they need some updated photos. That is a good representation of the image that we want to put out. Once I laid that foundation together, then we move over to making sure that they're registered with all the music rights organizations, so making sure that they have their registration or their members of the EMI or ASCAP and Harry Fox and the MLC and music reports and the whole nine. Let's handle the administrative stuff. And then, once that's together, then we start looking into the creative side of things and rolling out the single or the EP or whatever the project is that we've been working on.

Matt Ebso: 8:10

OK, so you're really starting by getting to know their goals. Can't do anything to you. Establish what the goals are, of course Right, and then you're getting the administrative ducks in a row and then moving on from there to the creative stuff and the rollout and the scheduling and all that good stuff. Exactly, exactly OK.

Patrice K. Cokely: 8:26

Because a lot of artists will jump to the rollout of the music first. And I get it. I understand that's the most exciting thing, but you've got to make sure that you can't put the cart before the horse. You've got to make sure that you have everything situated and organized before you get to that. And I was just telling the artist yesterday. I said the whole point of everything that we've done is you never know who may look you up or research you. You have all this content out. Someone may go dig and let's see who this guy is. We want to make sure everything is straight. So when they go look at your stuff online, it's good, everything's filled out, everything's up to date and you're not looking like just some hobbyist artist that's just doing this for fun. This is a career, so I want to make sure that they're presented. Is that online?

Matt Ebso: 9:12

Ah, so you're really drawing the line in the sand here. You're saying no hobbyist appearances, which I mean that's good. You know, you're taking yourself and your artist very seriously. It sounds like.

Patrice K. Cokely: 9:21

Oh for sure, Because it's not a hobby for me. If I wanted music to be a hobby, I would literally just play the piano with my cat, you know, like me In my spare time. But it's definitely not a hobby. It's something that I chose to build a career around because I'm passionate about it. So I make sure that they're real serious Because at the end of the day it is a business.

Patrice K. Cokely: 9:41

Do you still play piano? I'm going to be honest and say no. However, I still remember some things that played from when I was about seven and eight all the way up to my early 20s and I actually started out as a music major in college. So I still remember the ear training and the chords and theory and all that good stuff. But it's been a while. Like I don't want to date myself, but it's been a long time since I've looked at that stuff. So I feel like if I jump back into it, it should be easy.

Matt Ebso: 10:09

It's understandable. I started out in the audio visual production side of things because I wanted to record my own music and film my own music videos. I just wanted to be independent, diy, and so I was doing all that stuff and then eventually people said, hey, that's pretty cool, can you do that for me? And I wake up a few years later and suddenly I'm not doing my own stuff anymore and I'm just doing it for everybody else. So I completely get it. Well, do you miss playing piano or do you scratch the same creative itch by doing what you're doing now?

Patrice K. Cokely: 10:39

At times I feel like when I listen to music and I turn my speakers up to max volume, whether I'm at home or in the car I have that same creative itch. I feel it then when I'm listening and just strictly enjoying the music. But when it comes to the business side of things this is the first time I'm admitting this publicly I feel like I'm losing it. Doing this as work, I'm losing that spark and I'm working on that right now, trying to find that and see what that looks like to bring it back.

Patrice K. Cokely: 11:07

But, yeah, when I rock out I feel it then, but I haven't felt it in a while when it comes to the work aspect of it.

Matt Ebso: 11:14

That's understandable. I mean, the business side of music is very much business. Yeah, it needs to be done and somebody has to do it, so those artists can still continue to have that creative fire. Exactly, you kind of need a dedicated person like yourself to do that.

Patrice K. Cokely: 11:29

Exactly, and the good thing about me is that I get it, I understand it, I can relate to the artist and that's why I let them know. I can be that person so you can remain creative. I can be the one that handle the business. It's fine. And then we can just come together and share the insight and share what it is that we're working on things of that nature, just so they can stay in their creative space, because I feel like a lot of people don't get that. They need to understand, especially those in business. They need to understand that are creative, that's where they live, they breathe creativity, so we have to foster that in every way possible.

Matt Ebso: 11:59

Coming from a musical background, you probably understand that better than some people who come into it from a business background. Exactly, there's no typical artist, right? But when you're working with the big air quotes typical artist what are some of the common goals that pop up? When you're sitting down and doing that goal setting session, you're getting organized. What are the top three goals that artists have?

Patrice K. Cokely: 12:23

They want to grow their Spotify streams, grow their following online, whether it's TikTok or Instagram, and I'm noticing a lot of people want to get verified, thinking that's going to help something. So I would say those three are the top and I get it. But I feel like I'm old school. I feel like right now, when we're looking at this digital space, the numbers are literally that they're vanity metrics. We already know you got a million followers. That doesn't mean a million people are going to stream your music. So I'm all about let's literally build the fan base like a real fan base of people that's actually going to consume your music and it's going to patronize your business, whether it's you selling CDs or any other kind of merch or digital products, or t-shirts and hats and whatnot. I'm about that, but I noticed a lot of artists rather focus on the vanity metrics.

Matt Ebso: 13:18

Do you indulge them with that, or do you point them in a different direction?

Patrice K. Cokely: 13:21

A little of both. A little of both. I wouldn't be me if I didn't. Yeah, I indulge a little bit. I indulge them and come up with a strategy to where we can increase their Spotify numbers. We can do that. We can run ads on YouTube. We can run Instagram ads as well. Things of that nature we can cross promote across platforms. Or if they have a live show, like I have artists sometimes as they perform, I have them get up on stage and say, hey, everybody, pull their phones out, go to Instagram, follow me, and they get a massive amount of followers just from that. So yeah, we do things like that. But at the same time I try to incorporate some sort of tactic in there that would lead to us really seeing who are the super fans. So that could be getting phone numbers for text messaging, communication or emails for the newsletter, things of that nature, running a promo to see if people bite and buy the product. So yeah, I kind of do a little bit of both.

Matt Ebso: 14:18

So you mentioned super fans. What do you help your artists to do to cultivate that following of not just regular fans but super fans?

Patrice K. Cokely: 14:28

Mm-hmm. They got to be interesting for one. I feel like a lot of artists just want to spend time in the studio, but it's like let's show other sides of your life as well. So in order to cultivate that relationship, I tell them that they have to think about a fan, engaging with them as people, and you have to be relatable. Some of my best content has went viral because I've said something off the wall, but it was so relatable that people were shocked that someone had finally said it. I tell artists to do the same thing Don't hide behind the microphone all the time. Show who you are as well, and then from there we can put certain things in place to actually cultivate that running certain campaigns, such as my one artist that I work with.

Patrice K. Cokely: 15:09

I've been with him for four years. His name's Ken the messenger. We did a text message campaign where he was sending a message every morning, Just a little at words of encouragement. He's a Christian hip hop artist that's got his foot in gospel a little bit from a songwriting standpoint, and I said you're a young guy, he's in his early 20s. I said you can really encourage a lot of people right now with what you're going through personally, and I knew what he was going through. I'm like send a message to everyone that's signed up, giving them an encouraging word for a month, do it for a month. And he was able to do it in that help. And then at the end he offered a discount on some merch, a little giveaway, and it went really well. So I tried to get artists to come out this show a little bit and just be human and show that.

Matt Ebso: 15:50

I'm really interested in this text messaging thing. I remember several years ago I heard about something similar to what you're describing called Superphone.

Patrice K. Cokely: 16:00

Mm-hmm, yeah, that's what we use. Oh, you are. Yeah, we use Superphone.

Matt Ebso: 16:04

Okay, so tell me a little bit about how you work with that.

Patrice K. Cokely: 16:08

I think email newsletter, but it's really a message going out to your phone via text. So instead of asking for your email address, we're asking for your phone number. You enter it in and you sign up to receive alerts from us. But I don't call them alerts, I look at it as more so just personal messages from the artist. So with him he put out there hey, I want to keep in touch with you, give me your number so I can add you in my contacts. That's how he verbalized that to get people to sign up, and it worked. People wanted to stay in touch with him and it was literally him going in and texting people. Sometimes he would send a mass message out, but other times he could send individual messages out to people. We had something in there set up too, where he would send a message on their birthday. We asked for that information Just to build that one-to-one relationship, and I feel like a lot of that is missing right now in music and with him and his brand it fit perfectly.

Patrice K. Cokely: 16:57

He's kind of messenger. He's supposed to have a message. I would always tease him about that. When he slows down online, I'm like you can't message without a message. You need to put a message out there. That's our little joke. So that's what we did. It worked really well and, when you think about it, people are on their phones more than they're checking their emails. The open rate, or the response rate, was really high, much higher than email.

Matt Ebso: 17:21

Just because of my own unfamiliarity with the inner workings of Superphone, run me through how it looks on the receiving end. Can the people who receive the messages respond back to them?

Patrice K. Cokely: 17:32

Yeah, they sure can. They sure can on Superphone. Yes, there's other tech services out there where you can't. It's just a one-way communication and I purposely didn't want to sign up for those because I want them to be able to converse with him. He's not a big artist where it's going to be massive but I feel like for him it would be manageable for him to have a conversation with some of the people that would text him. So, yeah, with them, it is a two-way communication.

Matt Ebso: 17:55

Well, and for someone like him, that probably is really effective, like you say, because it's a message and they're engaged and he is building that following by engaging individual people, as opposed to just spamming Facebook saying, hey, look at me, look at me, look at me.

Patrice K. Cokely: 18:08

Exactly. But again it goes back to Brandy. Sure, that's his brand. His name is Ken the Messenger. He's a product of the church. His grandfather's a bishop. He always had a word and a message, so it just ties into the brand. So it worked.

Matt Ebso: 18:22

So tell me a little bit about some of the other projects you've worked on. I had a look at your projects page on your website. There's obviously Matthew Knowles. I saw blush on there. So tell me about your role with those projects.

Patrice K. Cokely: 18:36

With Mr Knowles. I did pretty much everything in regards to his online presence. To think of someone of that stature. He literally had just like a Twitter account that was private. So I came on board, established his Instagram, got it verified, established his Facebook page, his LinkedIn profile, got his Twitter going again all of that. But then, in addition to that, I also was a social media manager, so I will post content on his behalf. So all these posts that were going viral at the time this was a few years ago he was going viral for a book that he released called Racism from the Eyes of a Child. I and my team we designed that cover as well. He was getting all this press and it was really me posting these posts on the back end. So, yeah, I handled the social media, designed a couple of his book covers. And then, in addition to working with him, I also worked with Blush, which was a group that he was working with at the time, did the same thing with them, designed the website, their social media with them. They kind of managed their own social media. So I coached and guided and gave them some guidance there and ran some ads. They were on a tour with Seven Streeter. I remember running ads for the tour, routing that. So for them I would say I was their marketing manager, slash social media manager, slash consultant, digital marketer, anything online. That's what I did for them. So they were kind of like a two for one in a sense.

Patrice K. Cokely: 20:01

I also worked with an artist in Chicago. Her name is Pia Renee. Her biggest claim to fame now was that she was the top nine on the most recent season of the Voice. She ended up on John Legend's team With her. I pretty much helped her reestablish herself as an artist.

Patrice K. Cokely: 20:19

When I met her in Chicago she performed, she was on American Idol in the past and whatnot. And then life just happened and when me and her met I just encouraged her to get back on it. So I was her creative director for her EP called the Return. I set all that up, from the artwork, the photo shoot, the listening party, everything. Really I wasn't even hanging out with her in the studios. I would say that whole project was literally me in a sense. So now she's been in the TV show Empire, she's been on Chicago PD, chicago Fire. She's done so much stuff since then, but I did help her get back into music and being an artist. I would say there's been a couple of artists in Chicago where I've done that with Paris Suspita. I've also worked with a DJ local DJ. His name is T-Rail, but he was a DJ for a major recording artist. He worked at the radio station. I helped him reestablish his brand as well. So a lot of artists come to me to help them reinvigorate their music career in a sense.

Matt Ebso: 21:19

Who else are you currently working with and what kind of things are you presently doing for those artists?

Patrice K. Cokely: 21:27

Well with Ken the Messenger. He is currently writing, so with him he's kind of like on a pause right now. He's tapping into his creative spark and trying to get that going, but we've been fleshing out some ideas as far as the next run go. But he did release a big project last year that went really well called Ghetto Gospel, but now we're just waiting on him to create some more magic.

Patrice K. Cokely: 21:49

The other artist I'm working with he's based out in LA. His name is 1000 Milan and he's just an exciting, amped up, high energy hip hop artist. He's been an artist for a long time but I feel like he's been the type that just put music out and just release it. Like he has 70 songs out on the DSPs yes, 70, 70. And I'm like Milan. What is going on? We got to reel it back in, reel it back in and let's be more thoughtful, let's be more strategic with how we roll this stuff out and putting out content that makes sense.

Patrice K. Cokely: 22:24

We just released a single and a music video earlier this year, so last month, and right now we're still promoting that. We're running quite a few different campaigns on YouTube. We're doing some video distribution, just pitching the video out to some video networks to get them to pick the video up. And he's also working on his next single, and the plan for that really depends on what it is that he comes up with, because I told him let's drop it over the summer. So this is what I'm thinking. So now he has to create it and then, once he creates it, that's when we'll start getting back into the planning of things. As far as the rollout strategy, the creative, what type of influencers we want to reach out to to see if we could partner with them. On the promo side of things, he's active, so it's just all promo at this point.

Matt Ebso: 23:09

So you've had your hands on a lot of different types of projects. Circling back to the artists that I work with, I work with a lot of artists who get done in the studio. They're not quite sure where to go from there. You know, they've spent all their creative energy. Like you said, they cultivate this creative side of themselves and they create this thing that's beautiful. They're proud of it, they're happy with it. They love this album or the single or this music video, whatever it is. And then there's just so many steps for what comes next. So let's say there's an artist who's leaving the studio, has no plan in place. What kind of advice would you give them to point them in the right direction so that they could at least start to be effective with getting their music to the people that they want to hear it?

Patrice K. Cokely: 23:58

And they have nothing. They just have a record and that's it.

Matt Ebso: 24:01

Let's assume they have nothing.

Patrice K. Cokely: 24:02

Oh, wow, we got to create something. Yeah, it goes back to what I was saying earlier as far as coming up with the brand and the image. What is it that we're selling? We're not selling music. That's like the first thing I tell them. We're not selling music, we're selling you. Music is just the byproduct. The artist is the product. So we're selling you, so we have to create you first before we even think about the music. That's what I tell them first.

Patrice K. Cokely: 24:27

And then let's build around that and once they have that, all the other stuff really is easy. Once the artist knows who they are, how they want to be represented or perceived in the marketplace, then it's pretty simple from there. But I feel like a lot of artists they'll create music but they don't know who they are yet. So once we figure that out, then it's like OK, let's start building an image, having a logo, making sure that you have a brand identity, logo, color scheme. Maybe the website gets your bio together, your photos that's a good representation of you, not just you standing on the porch, but making sure the backdrop is a good scene Like it's a good look where someone looks at this picture and can immediately decipher what it is that you represent, what type of artist you are, and then from there then we take a look at the music.

Patrice K. Cokely: 25:16

When do you want to roll it out? Give yourself a good three to six months, so that way you can at least plan the release. If you want to do press, maybe hire publicists, create a story that a publicist could actually use to pitch, and maybe the publicist can even help with the story and then creating content around the story. Like I said with Ken, his whole thing being a messenger, he released a project that had an envelope on it. He took pictures with envelopes spread around because he's a messenger. He even got pictures of him writing Like he's writing a message. So it's stuff like that to make sure that we tie it all in together. I feel like once they know who it is, that they are, then all this other stuff would literally just fall into place. But they got to get that core down first.

Matt Ebso: 25:55

Like you said earlier, you can't put the cart before the horse. Yeah, you got to figure out who the horse is Exactly.

Patrice K. Cokely: 26:02

Who's the horse and I know the strategy varies. I know what I'm saying could sound vague to some, but the strategy really varies depending on the artist, depending on the song. Like how you market a pop record, it's totally different from how you market a hip hop record, even how working with Ken and how I market 1000 Milan, it's totally different from how I would market Ken the messenger, even though they're both hip hop. Ken is clean and Christian hip hop. In a sense, milan is turned up. You know it's totally different and it's going to be different if I work with a rock band or even Pia who's R&B and with a little reggae tone tour.

Patrice K. Cokely: 26:41

It varies, you know, as far as the strategy goes, so I couldn't really get into that. It just depends on the artist, but I would say everyone starts with identifying who they are and developing that brand and identity surrounding them and then coming up with a plan of action based on the record that they want to put out.

Matt Ebso: 27:00

That makes 100% sense to me. You can't figure out how to get where you're going until you know where you're going. Exactly, exactly.

Patrice K. Cokely: 27:07

Where is it that we going? And I ask artists that all the time. One of the first questions is what's your expectation? What is your expectation? Because some artists will say, oh, I want a million Spotify streams tomorrow, and I look at them like, no, let me rephrase what is your expectation? Like realistic expectation, you know. I also ask what are their goals? Some artists want to be superstars, whereas some are OK. Being the local band that performs at weddings. It really depends. So you just got to really determine what that is and then go from there.

Matt Ebso: 27:42

What does a realistic expectation look like versus an unrealistic one?

Patrice K. Cokely: 27:47

The million streams, the one million streams. Tomorrow, artists will say, oh, I want to be Biggest Drake. Ok, I'm sure Drake didn't say he wanted to be Biggest Drake. A lot of the superstars, they just worked and they happened. They became superstars because of their work ethic Some were involved in criminal activity to be where they're at, like it's the truth.

Patrice K. Cokely: 28:11

But are you willing to risk and make the type of sacrifices that they made to become who they are? I like to say you know, realistically, what is it that you want? Like, what do you want with this music career? What do you want to do? If you want to live off your music, cool, let's figure out how we can monetize it and come up with some ways that we can do that and actually scale it over the years.

Patrice K. Cokely: 28:33

Like one artist he's an older guy with a family. He got like three kids. A wife worked two jobs. One job is strictly for his music career. I don't know how he does it, I have no idea, but he does it and I had to ask him recently what's your goals? What is it that you're trying to do? Because you've got to give yourself a good six, seven years to even see some kind of fruit from your labor. He's like, wow, how do you see it like that? And I think he's now approaching like year five. It's hitting him now. Now he's getting it, yeah, and now you're going to have to start making some tough decisions. Do you want to take your family on vacation or do you want to go record this live EP? Like, what do you want to do?

Matt Ebso: 29:11

Well, I see it a lot too, where people get this idea in their head from the way that the entertainment industry portrays itself, that success happens overnight for artists. They don't see all the legwork that has actually gone into making a career happen. They just see the hit single ago. They came out of nowhere when in reality that artist has been working for the last 10 years at Starbucks to support their music career. Exactly, Yep.

Patrice K. Cokely: 29:39

And when I come across those videos, those are the videos I clip and put on my Instagram because they don't show that One of the artists now Summer either Summer or Sizzle one of them. They were cleaning houses. They were like a maid, cleaning services, you know, residential cleaning services. Like she was doing that before she blew up. Lizzo I saw that she had a video of her 10 years ago playing the flute and she looked totally different. Like I know she had some little regular jobs. They don't show that. It's out there, we just have to find it. They don't hide it but they don't put it out there either. You know they're trying to live up to this image and I try to tell artists like you have to see through that Like no one blows up overnight. Like Lizzo been grinding for a good six, 70 years. She was even a princess protégé at one point. So it takes time.

Matt Ebso: 30:31

It takes networking, being connected with the right people and just developing and growing before you get to that level or even just pop and it always makes me wonder why would the entertainment industry portray itself that way, when everybody who's involved in it truly involved in it knows exactly how much effort it takes?

Patrice K. Cokely: 30:50

Yeah, I wanted to ask you.

Matt Ebso: 30:53

What is the most important lesson you've learned over your career? We're going to get into the hard questions now.

Patrice K. Cokely: 31:06

The most important lesson my lesson, I would say is to put myself first. I know I sacrificed a lot just for the success of my business, which it ties to an artist, and I will say that's the one thing that I absolutely hate. I do hate that because I'm real big on work ethic and I talk about this a lot on my Instagram. One thing I refuse to do is work with an artist that doesn't have a work ethic Like, if my work ethic beats yours, then we can't work together Because my success is tied to the artist. You know what I do. Despite what I know, despite the education, how much time, money, energy I've invested in myself, it doesn't mean anything unless the artist pop. But in order for them to pop, they have to do what they're supposed to do as the artist. So I would say the one thing that I learned is to put myself first and to always think of myself first, and it's not from a selfish standpoint, but you got to think about mental health. You know that's real big in the industry and you can literally you can easily lose yourself in this industry working with people who are either ungrateful or who don't see your value and things of that nature, just because it's a smoke and mirrors type of industry that we're in, so you can easily lose yourself in that. So for me, I try to really stay grounded and try to keep good people around me, and I also just recently I'm starting to do more things that are for me.

Patrice K. Cokely: 32:36

You know, I spend a lot of time with my girlfriend. We're always doing things traveling. Before I didn't do that. If I traveled, it was to a music conference and I'm like, oh, I'll make a vacation out of it. You know like no, it's like I see artists, they have their families, they're going out, traveling and doing stuff for themselves. There's like no, patrice, you need to do the same thing. You can't continue to put yourself on the back burner for others who are not pursuing their career like you would hope they would. So I would say that's my biggest lesson is to not put myself on the back burner and put myself first and find balance.

Matt Ebso: 33:13

That's a lesson I feel like everybody could take home at some point in their lives. There's so many pressures on us, just as humans, to put other people's needs first, whether it's in the workplace or with the family life, and you can't help people unless you yourself have the strength to support those people.

Patrice K. Cokely: 33:36

Very true, you can't pour from an empty cup.

Matt Ebso: 33:38

Ooh, I love that. Yeah, you can. That's like when they're given the safety briefing on an airplane. They always say put your own mask on before you help anybody else Exactly yep that's true. In your opinion, what is the most important personality trait or strength? Someone would need to have to be successful as a full-time musician.

Patrice K. Cokely: 34:04

Outside, of being creative, communication and being able to work with people from all walks of life. I would say that's a good personality trait to have. A lot of people don't have that. A lot of people are used to working with a certain type of group of people or a certain demographic and whatnot, and it's like no, the industry isn't set up that way. It's very diverse. You have people from all backgrounds, all genders, all sexual orientations, race, like the whole nine. It's a super, extremely diverse industry and even backgrounds. Like you have people that are highly educated. I mean, you have some that are not, some that are super professional and some that are not. So I feel like it's very important to be able to move amongst that and be able to communicate and network amongst a group of people that is diverse in that way. So I would say that's a really good personality trait to have that skill, because a lot of people don't have it.

Matt Ebso: 35:06

So a combination of communication, tolerance and adaptability. It sounds like. In a sense yep, yep, pretty sure, yeah. So for someone who is maybe building a career in music now they're just starting out, maybe they're established do you have any thoughts on the future of music marketing or the music business? Are there any trends that you're noticing that are starting to emerge, that really haven't become mainstream yet, or just anything that you notice is coming down the pipeline that people might not be aware of?

Patrice K. Cokely: 35:42

I think a lot of people are growing tired of the streaming platforms and how they operate, how little they pay. I feel like a lot of people are growing tired of that. Even the metaverse people will say all the metaverse and blockchain and NFTs this is cool and everything. But part of me feel like we may go back old school, because I feel like a lot of folks are just over this digital payout structure to where we're gonna go back to selling physical product like CDs and vinyl. I just read an article not too long ago where they say CD sales are spiky and I'm like that's interesting. We already know people are buying vinyl, but like CDs, like that's so cool.

Patrice K. Cokely: 36:25

I think people are missing that. Just the joy of going to a store, buying a CD, opening the package, reading the booklet and the credits Like it was a whole experience. And now I feel like with the streaming platforms, there's no experience. It's just click, play and move on to the next and then, on top of that, that you're only being paid so many cents on the penny. So I feel like it's going to shift. It may go back to like the old way of making music and selling music, but I feel like it's gonna change in some kind of way, but I wouldn't be surprised if it went back to CDs and digital downloads or something.

Matt Ebso: 37:05

Well, that makes sense. I had a conversation with Brad Gunnerson recently, who is a sales rep at CopyCats Media so they're the biggest CD duplication house in the country and he talked at length about how physical merch physical CDs, physical cassettes and vinyl even are really crucial when you're an artist at a venue to give somebody something physical to take home with them. Because, like you said, it's not just about the music. The music's a byproduct, it's about that experience, and if you can take home a memento from a good experience that happens to have some music on it, even better. Yeah, yeah.

Patrice K. Cokely: 37:48

I was just watching the Janet Jackson documentary the other day. I'm a big Janet Jackson fan. Michael Jackson like those are my top two artists. I had no idea, though, that the Rhythm Nation tour, which was like my first tour that I went to as a kid, I had no idea that was the biggest selling debut tour by an artist, even to this day, and that was in like the nineties. I had no idea that tour held that record, and I'm saying this to say because I went. My mom took me. I was about nine years old or so, and I still have the tour booklet from that tour, talking about a physical product like the book is literally, it's like it's the biggest of my screen. This screen is what? Like 27 inch screen, I think. Like it's literally the book is literally that big of pages yet and I still have it. So talk about like physical product and we looking at like over 30 years later and it's still, that's something that's special. You know why wouldn't we wanna go back to that?

Matt Ebso: 38:53

Well, in a world, too, where there is so much emphasis put on social media and on streaming and on digital marketing, it seems that artists and maybe just businesses in general, anybody who's trying to market themselves or their services or a product we're all maybe forgetting a little bit about the fact that we exist in a physical world. Yes, yeah. And physical people like to interact with physical things.

Patrice K. Cokely: 39:23

That's how I feel about the metaverse. I really do feel I'm like it's cool from a video game standpoint. I used to play Grand Theft Auto back in the day Like I love that game for what you can do in it, but we still living in a physical world, like what's gonna happen when you go to the grocery store. Like you're not gonna know how to interact with people if you're just living on the screen, like that's so odd to me. So I totally feel that. I feel that with the metaverse, for sure.

Matt Ebso: 39:51

And we'll see I guess you know, as time plays out, if we all end up like the people in the movie Wally or Like black mirror or something like that. Or if we end up realizing in our collective consciousness as humanity that, hey, maybe some of this needs to be dialed back a bit so that we can get back to our roots and, you know, focus on our mental health and engaging with physical, real people, exactly.

Patrice K. Cokely: 40:15

Exactly.

Matt Ebso: 40:15

I guess we'll see how that plays out. So we've been talking for a while. I have a couple of questions to close us out. I want to know what one piece of advice would you leave our listener with and I know I already kind of asked for maybe some advice for somebody starting out, but just generally speaking could be about life, could be about music. What one piece of advice do you want to leave our listener with?

Patrice K. Cokely: 40:42

I need to take my own advice. Don't overthink things, just do it. And I'm going through something now where I'm overthinking something and it's like, patrice, just do it, because I feel like you wasting time thinking what's the worst that can happen. You don't know unless you do it. You know what I'm saying. So just don't overthink and literally just do it. Like Nike say. It's so cliche, but as artists and as creative people, we do get caught up in our head. We do go in this hamster wheel of thoughts where people like it is this the right move? Am I too old to do this? Am I too young to do this? Do I have the money? Can I afford it? Should I? Is it good? Is it not good? It's just so much and it's like just do it. Just do it and see what happens.

Matt Ebso: 41:29

You're preaching to me now. I feel like there's so much about music and trying to be creative and turning creative endeavors into a way to make a living. That is really easy to overthink this. It's really easy to get in your head because creativity is inherently a thinking activity and so it's just so easy to get stuck there and not engage with the physical world and be here in the present moment and go. You know what things aren't so bad. We'll just take one step at a time. Just do it, just do it. You said in the words of Nike. I like to say in the words of Shia LaBeouf you know?

Patrice K. Cokely: 42:07

just do it.

Matt Ebso: 42:09

Yeah, I like that one better yeah.

Patrice K. Cokely: 42:11

Yeah.

Matt Ebso: 42:17

All right, here's a good one for you. What one question do you wish I would have asked you, and how would you have answered it?

Patrice K. Cokely: 42:26

Oh wow, you asked some really good questions. That's gonna be tough.

Matt Ebso: 42:32

Like I told you, we're getting into the part of it where I'm asking some tough ones.

Patrice K. Cokely: 42:35

Oh man, hmm, what's the future of the baseline group? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha ha. Going back to my overthinking, I'm thinking what lies ahead for the baseline group? I don't know. I'm literally in a weird, weird space when it comes to this, tying back into what I said self-care and putting myself first and things of that nature.

Patrice K. Cokely: 43:04

And then it's like I don't wanna say I'm getting up here in age. I don't wanna say it like that. But when you hit a certain age, you start to think back like am I really enjoying it? Am I really stopping to smell the flowers or am I constantly on the go? Am I always in the car going somewhere or just going around the block in fast speed, or am I literally just stopping and walking slow and smelling the flowers and walking the dog and stopping to talk to the neighbors? And then you know I'm an analogy. Well, that's where I'm at. I want to stop and enjoy just life, right, and I don't know if I can do that and continue to pursue the baseline group at the same time.

Matt Ebso: 43:50

Mm.

Patrice K. Cokely: 43:51

Yeah, so right now I don't know what the future lies ahead. When it comes to the baseline group, Of course it's always gonna be in existence. It's a publishing company, so I do represent work. However, I'm still up in the air on that. What's next? Like my bio said, it's really been about 15 years, but the baseline group has been in existence for the past eight and, with the way the world is changing, with the way the industry is changing, it's like all right, is it worth it?

Patrice K. Cokely: 44:22

And especially and I really started questioning this when I started to not enjoy it. I used to wake up and enjoy what it is that I do and I don't know. Could it be because we're not in the studio? I love the creative aspect of it, like just like the artists, like I love being in the studio hanging out with the artists. Is it because we're not in the studio now because of COVID and everything is so remote? Is COVID, is this a COVID thing? Is this COVID related? The pandemic is it pandemic related or not? But I don't know. But yeah, it's a big question mark. So, yeah, that's the question and the answer.

Matt Ebso: 44:57

Yeah, and you're absolutely right. It's hard to know at a certain point, once you've been in an industry for a while. When you first start out your bright-eyed, bushy, tailed, as the saying goes you know you jump out of your bed every day excited because you're just involved with music. That alone is enough for that spark to get you going. But then what happens when the fire starts to burn out? Do you you gotta find more logs to put in the fire, or you let it go out, or, yes, you gotta kinda reexamine your relationship with the artist you work with, with the business, with your own mind too. I know I've gotten through that myself with my production company Cloverly Foddy of Visual. There are days where I am on top of the world working on some of these projects and to get done with the project and look back and go, wow, look at this thing we did. But then there's other days where it really is a job like any other, it's an industry. It's not just music, it's a music industry.

Matt Ebso: 46:01

An industry comes with work, it comes with dedication, and some days that dedication is tested. So I feel for ya. I guess is what.

Matt Ebso: 46:10

I'm saying I feel for ya and I hope you find some clarity in that it's Thank you. Are you familiar with an older book called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance? No, no, who did I buy Robert Persig? I don't think he's alive anymore. They came out in the 70s so it's a little older.

Matt Ebso: 46:31

But there was one idea in there that really stood out to me as it pertains to looking ahead at the future. We always think of the future as being ahead of us down the path we're facing it, but the author draws the reader's attention to how the ancient Greeks looked at the future. The ancient Greeks had a perspective where we were turned around as people. The past lies in front of us because we can see it all clearly. We can see where we've been, we can see it all, and the further back we get from it, the more clarity we have, because we can see more.

Matt Ebso: 47:11

But, on the other hand, the future is behind us. We can't see what's sneaking up from behind. We can only take a guess based on what we're looking at in the past. Ooh, interesting, kind of flip, and since reading that, I've been thinking about that a lot, and especially as it pertains to, like you said, the future of one's own business, the future of the music business, the future of one's music career. It's hard to know what's sneaking up behind us, but yeah yeah, I pulled it up here, I'm gonna take a look at it.

Matt Ebso: 47:39

Yeah, it's a good read. Okay, admittedly, it's a bit of a journey at moments, but it's a good read. Cool, cool. I love a good read. All right, I have one sort of lighthearted question to finish off the show with Okay, where can people find you online?

Patrice K. Cokely: 47:57

Oh, that's easy. Yeah, just my name, just plug it in. No, I'm Patrice K Coakley everywhere Instagram, facebook, twitter, even my website, patricekcoakleycom. Or you can find me at the baseline group, and the baseline is basslinegroupcom, and it's the same on all the social media platforms as well. So I'm literally everywhere under those two names.

Matt Ebso: 48:22

Awesome. Well, hey, thank you so much for joining me and I hope we'll chat again here soon. Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me.

Patrice K. Cokely: 48:29

This was good.

Matt Ebso: 48:30

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, ok, thanks, daniel, yep, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, ok, yeah, looks good Bye, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, then the following week is next Youца. Oh, great, okay.