Demystifying Artist Development with Lou Plaia, Founder of ReverbNation

Matt Ebso: 0:07

Hello there podcast listeners. Welcome to episode 4 of After the Master of Musicians Guide. The aim of this podcast is to help musicians and independent artists find clarity about their next steps to succeed in the music business. I'm your host, matt Ebso, and today's conversation is a really, really cool one. I have the pleasure of chatting with Lou Plaia, who, amongst other things, is the founder of Reverb Nation. In this conversation, we discuss the importance of genuineness in the music industry, misconceptions about record labels and the artist development process, as well as the challenges that artists face at each phase of their journey.

Matt Ebso: 0:44

A quick note we recorded this episode in March 2022, so you might notice a few outdated references. The most obvious immediate example of that would be in the bio that I read at the beginning. To add to the bio, lou began working as an ANR director at Centric Music Group the month after our conversation was recorded. However, the bulk of the content is still highly relevant for artists in 2024 and beyond. So grab a beverage, sit back and get ready to be inspired. Let's dive in.

Matt Ebso: 1:21

Hey everyone, matt Ebso here and today I'm chatting with Lou Plaia. Lou was the co-founder and EVP Music Industry and Artist Relations at Reverb Nation. Lou co-founded Reverb Nation, which is now the leading online music marketing platform used by more than 5 million artists, managers, labels, venues, festival event tour promoters and other music industry professionals to grow their reach and business across the internet. Prior to Reverb Nation, Lou worked 12 years at Atlantic Records before becoming the head of marketing and artist development for Atlantic imprint Lava Records. There he worked for 3 years with artists such as Kid Rock, oar, simple Plan, trans-siberian Orchestra, uncle Cracker, matchbox 20, unwritten Law, skin Dread, nonpoint and many others. Woo, quite the resume.

Lou Plaia: 2:10

Welcome to this show, Lou. That just means I'm old.

Matt Ebso: 2:14

Hey, you know, if age comes, wisdom right. So I'm going to start off by asking the question I think everybody wants to know which is what is the best Italian restaurant in Massapiqua, new York, and how often do you write off client meetings there?

Lou Plaia: 2:32

Oh wow, I like Giovanni's. It's pretty much close to my house, okay, and I never write off anything there.

Matt Ebso: 2:41

Oh, okay, you're an honest soul.

Lou Plaia: 2:45

Yeah, yeah, I know, I don't know why I just never do. Maybe that's why I'm not living in a mansion.

Matt Ebso: 2:52

Well, you're working with independent musicians. You know that's kind of par for the course. I missed my corporate credit card.

Lou Plaia: 2:58

My Atlantic Records days was much better. Oh yeah, I used to write off a lot of things.

Matt Ebso: 3:03

Oh, okay, so I know that you got your start with a degree in finance, right, yeah, how did somebody with a degree in finance end up building just this decades-long career working to help independent musicians? That seems kind of like finance. And then broke musicians those are kind of like opposite ends of the spectrum. So how'd you get from point A to point B? Walk me through that journey.

Lou Plaia: 3:34

Yeah. So I mean I graduated college with a finance degree, believe it or not, and I worked two years at Polygram which I guess is now universal in the late 80s, and I worked in the finance department. So I was literally a financial analyst, totaled back in almost nothing to do with the music business. And then I went to Atlantic Records. I'm going to say my first five or six years there were probably also in finance, but I got to be more involved with, like I was in charge of budgeting for all the marketing and creative departments. So I got to understand what the publicist does, what the video promo team does, what the radio does, and I probably was the only one who knew what everyone did and knew what they spent, which was kind of cool. From there I just worked my way up.

Lou Plaia: 4:16

I think I left Atlantic as I think I was the vice president of strategic marketing. Then, when Jason Flam created Lava Records, I was brought in and I was the head of marketing and artist development there. So nothing to do with finance. Quite the journey, yeah. So it's pretty rare that I guess someone goes from finance to marketing. It's helped because in my new company I'm not cheap but I'm stingy, that's what. Whatever the word my grandmother used to use, I'm stingy with my money.

Matt Ebso: 4:46

I kind of think of myself as kind of a frugal individual as well. So I get it Exactly, exactly. Big difference from cheap, yeah, and at the end of the day too, you're running a business, you have to be profitable. You have to be frugal to be profitable.

Lou Plaia: 4:57

Yeah yeah, people do too many stupid things that just not going to make doesn't make any sense. Money wise, right.

Matt Ebso: 5:04

Right. So running in the positions that you do, having that finance background probably is a huge asset because it gives you that real world business perspective that you can bring to the table for artists.

Lou Plaia: 5:18

Yeah, exactly, and I think what's good is I do a lot of things that might cost me money that I get zero dollars back because I know it might help with the branding or it's not measurable when you can get back and I realize that. But strict accountants might not see that.

Matt Ebso: 5:33

Sure, so it's more of an intangible return that you get.

Lou Plaia: 5:36

Yeah, I think so yeah.

Matt Ebso: 5:37

That makes sense, and the same thing for artists. Artists have to do the same thing. Well, it's almost entirely that for artists. Almost everything is intangible, exactly it's reputation, exactly you know Like. Why would you spend $100 on a haircut?

Lou Plaia: 5:49

Well, because you got to look good on stage. Exactly.

Matt Ebso: 5:52

Yep, yep. What kind of skills did you develop over time as you worked your way up that chain of command that made you the expert you are today?

Lou Plaia: 6:02

You actually have to look outside the box at certain things, especially when I was at Re-remunation as a startup. You have to look outside the box because if you're just going to do what everyone else is doing, you're going to fail. Even if you do it better, you'll probably fail. You have to do certain things different, almost like an artist. It's got to be. I think nowadays, artists have to have something like shtick. You know, they got the best music in the world. If they don't have some shtick to it, I feel like it's really hard for them to go anywhere. I think my career it was kind of similar, I guess. I mean, I just thought finance and oh my God, like you said, the haircut thing. Yeah, that artist might not be getting paid for that gig but damn, he looks good and that might get him another gig or something like that, or it might get people to click on his page or whatever it is.

Matt Ebso: 6:47

Are you showing it with the author, Mike McCallowix, one of the things he said in his book Get Different? It's a book about marketing. He basically talks about how industry best practices are really in reality, the best things to avoid, because the best practices are the things that everybody else is doing.

Matt Ebso: 7:04

So why would you do what everybody else is doing?

Matt Ebso: 7:07

So the big reason I'm working on this show is I've worked as a multimedia producer for almost a decade.

Matt Ebso: 7:17

I guess One of the biggest problems I see artists facing is they spend so much time working on their craft as artists working on their songwriting, working on their performing skills they're putting together an awesome record and then getting a photo shoot done and they look good and they got their music video and then they get all this content together and then their mental block kind of hits and they go now what Exactly?

Matt Ebso: 7:41

It happens so often that I've started calling it the now what conundrum. But I've noticed it's different for artists who are just starting out, just budding artists, as it is for artists who are gaining some traction and artists who are very well established. They all seem to to some degree, experience that now what conundrum, but it's on different levels. So I'm curious, with the background and expertise that you have working at all those different levels, both trying to help independent artists, small time artists, as well as working with some larger artists. What would you say are some of the biggest hurdles artists at each of those stages have to overcome and how would you suggest that artists at each of those stages entry level, gaining traction and well established work to overcome them?

Lou Plaia: 8:32

I think they need to have a checklist, like an onboarding checklist of things to do, because they can have the, like you said, the greatest music in the world, but if they're not doing certain things, no one's either going to hear them or if they do hear them, they're not going to get paid properly. If they're not set up properly, like there's publishing administration, there's split sheet things, there's you know, everyone does their copyright registration, but there's a lot more than just that and I don't think they're well equipped on that. There's a lot of the companies have great blogs on their websites, like Swung, trust and Centric. They have great blogs on the publishing side and distributors have great blogs as well. Rehabilitation has great blog and it can really educate them on what they need to do.

Lou Plaia: 9:17

Before they put that single out and I think that's on the emerging artists, they just need that onboarding checklist. I call it. On the bigger side, I think they have a team that does all that for them, like when the next single comes out or whatever, when these artists are already bigger. So I think what they have to do is what about downtime? How did they?

Lou Plaia: 9:42

For the last two years, they weren't making any income from live shows, were they set up for that? Did they have a team that actually put money aside for them during those hurdles, days, bad days of bad days, bad years? How do you go from making six figures to making zero? A lot of these older artists that's successful. Now they have families and then what? So I think there's a mental thing, there's a fiduciary I don't know if that's the right word money, a finance thing for them hurdle to get over because most of them they have a team that's doing most of the other things uploading their stuff and marketing and recording. So I think a lot of it's mental, and finance maybe might be a big hurdle to get over?

Matt Ebso: 10:27

How about in that middle ground? So there's a lot of information out there for the budding artist, the emerging artist as you've called them, but maybe it's a little bit difficult sometimes because the information is all out there on the internet but it's scattered, but it's there. Maybe it becomes a little bit more difficult for someone who's gotten past that stage and they know okay, well, I gotta register things, I gotta get my personal brand trademark in order. They're starting to think about those things, they know all these things. But putting the pieces together to really get the ball rolling, how does one get from that emerging artist stage to the point where they have a team? There's like a, I think, in a lot of budding artists' mind, emerging artists' mind. They have this idea that they're like oh, I'm just gonna put out a great single, someone will discover me and then I'll have a team. But there's a lot between point A and point B.

Lou Plaia: 11:24

Yeah.

Matt Ebso: 11:25

What does that gray middle area look like and how do they overcome that, how do they get through it?

Lou Plaia: 11:32

Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard. I don't want to say you have to know people to get you to that, to gain that team behind you. It's really not that. I mean everyone's looking at data now. So if you want to get a manager or a booking agent on board, you better be pulling in numbers, whether it's streams or ticket sales or something like that.

Lou Plaia: 11:53

It's very rare that anyone wants to take a chance on an artist that has nothing going on. Unfortunately, it's not about the music anymore, it's about a lot more. It's about again they don't want to. Even the major labels, they can't afford to take a risk on signing an artist that has no followers, no streams. They just can't. They took a lot of chances and now they don't. They've got these social, the TikToks of the world, things like that, where they someone's got million followers and millions of views and stuff like that, and apparently that makes them a successful musician, at least so they say. We hear about some of the success stories. We never hear about all the failures that everybody signs from those TikTok things. We'll hear about all of them in a year or two when all those artists get dropped Right.

Matt Ebso: 12:49

Because you hadn't heard anything between the time they got signed and the time they got dropped.

Matt Ebso: 12:54

Makes a lot of sense. So, with all the different eras of music that you've been a part of, I mean, you were there, probably in some of the pre-Internet release strategy days, and now it's like If you don't have an Internet strategy, what are you doing? So what would you say are some of the biggest differences between how things used to work and how they work now? Aside from the obvious things, what are the things that nobody thinks about that are actually really different?

Lou Plaia: 13:30

In the very back in the late 80s and early 90s the way you would figure out what an artist is kind of like. If there's an artist buzzing in your local market, what would happen is they would play at a gig and all of a sudden sales would go up in that local retail store and the A&R person would say has that band anybody come in and buy that album or cassette after their show? And if the store owner said, yeah, man, it was crazy. The game, 50 pieces they all sold out and the A&R person would probably sign them.

Lou Plaia: 14:04

Nowadays you don't need that, you just sit at your computer. I mean I would imagine most A&R people are on their laptop all day long searching the charts and the streams and who's doing what and things like that. But even that has some illegal things going on, with bots and artists doing stupid things. To be honest. I mean buying plays and buying fans, which amounts to nothing in the long run. And labels aren't dumb. They see, if you've got a million followers and three people comment every time you post something, they know it's all fake. I mean, nobody's that dumb.

Matt Ebso: 14:41

Sure, or the same comment, the same 10 comments over and over by different users. I've seen that one before. Yeah, exactly. And so, when it comes to A&R, it sounds like you're doing some of that for your new company. Are we allowed to talk about that yet?

Lou Plaia: 14:59

Yeah, I mean I can't say the company, but I will be doing A&R for a new company. Okay, it's not a company that's been around, but I'll be doing that.

Matt Ebso: 15:07

New to you, new to me, okay, cool A couple of weeks I was mentioning earlier. It seems in the minds of a lot of emerging artists there's a lot of misconceptions about how labels work, how people get signed, how people get their music out there, and maybe there's even still some misconceptions amongst people who have been in it for a while if they haven't been exposed to that higher echelon of how the music industry works. So, having experienced all that yourself, what would you say are some of the biggest misconceptions about the role of record labels and A&R in an artist's career?

Lou Plaia: 15:46

I feel like a lot of emerging artists say, oh, you don't need a label anymore, you just do everything yourself. I feel like they're bashing the labels and I think that's untrue. I would think if you have certain types of music you're putting out pop music, hip pop music, country music, which I guess is pop music I feel like you do need a label behind you, like a big label. One of the misconceptions is radio is dead. Well, it's not what it used to be, but it's definitely not dead.

Lou Plaia: 16:11

The artists that are doing extremely well on Spotify all have a ton of radio airplay. You can't knock the record labels. They're amazing at what they do, they're experts they really are and they've got money. So if you want to be an emerging artist, then you think you can tour the country and get on Spotify playlist and be written about all the time with no funding. That's all the power to you. But I don't think it's going to happen. I mean, I have never heard of that in my life. Maybe it's a handful of artists in 30 years that came out of nowhere without any money. But you need a label, you need somebody to fund it and you need a team of experts to put it out there, and I feel like a lot of emerging artists think their music is so damn good. People are going to find it and they're going to get rich from it, and it just doesn't work that way, sure. So I don't know if I really answered it. No, it totally does.

Matt Ebso: 17:04

That's a big misconception. I mean, people see success stories like I think it's chance to rapper, yeah, yeah, exactly, you know, unsigned getting a Grammy. They see that and go all right, label days are done Right right. Which yeah?

Lou Plaia: 17:18

It can work. I mean, he had a huge brand that was paying millions and millions of dollars was Kit Cattle, whatever it was that helped. That's why he was able to give away his songs and not sell them. You know, because he was getting a million dollars somewhere else. If somebody wasn't getting, if the brand wasn't giving him a million dollars, I guarantee he'd be trying to sell those CDs and everything else.

Matt Ebso: 17:39

It makes a lot of sense and Taylor.

Lou Plaia: 17:39

Swift same thing. Everyone's like oh she's independent, oh she's not. She always had a bankroll behind her and I love her deal. I think she's amazing, but she had money behind her. She just come out of nowhere.

Matt Ebso: 17:50

Right, and I think people see that far too often, for whatever reason. See the story of just grilling a guitar in her bedroom writing some songs. Next thing you know she's on stage in front of millions of people. How'd that happen, magic I?

Lou Plaia: 18:03

guess, I don't know the songs were just that good.

Matt Ebso: 18:06

Yep, yep, and the songs may be good, but there's a lot of behind the scenes, yeah, and there's also a lot of platforms, like you know, I'll throw hours into re-vermination.

Lou Plaia: 18:16

A lot of platforms will say they will take you from zero to come stars and that's just not true. Software can't do that. I mean, at re-vermination, I never, ever, ever, none of us have ever said we're going to make somebody a superstar. We just provided basic tools to get you from maybe A to B, but not from B to C. There's no way, you know you do, like I said, you need that team and funding. Spending $9.99 a month on re-vermation or CD Baby or something else is definitely not going to make you Beyonce.

Matt Ebso: 18:45

Sorry, but it would at least get somebody started who doesn't otherwise have that background.

Lou Plaia: 18:51

Exactly, yes, it does and it helps. It absolutely helps you and I definitely think you need these type of softwares, but it's not getting you to the multi-platform level.

Matt Ebso: 19:01

Sure, well, and re-vermation has been around for a while 2006, right, yeah, yeah, 16 years. For those people who aren't familiar, I guess run us through what that platform does differently than some of its competitors.

Lou Plaia: 19:14

So yeah, I mean I think we were like the home base, because we do offer so many different things from an email platform. We'll maintain your mailing lists and all that. We give you basic marketing tools, digital advertising campaigns you could run, whether it's Facebook or on other sites. We offer publishing, administration, distribution, electronic press kits, kind of basic tools. Like I said, none of its email marketing systems are not going to get you rich and famous, but it's sure going to help you gain some momentum with fans and manage your systems and things like that. And then we also offered something that most companies don't do anymore, which are opportunities.

Lou Plaia: 19:55

Sonic Pids was the big player in that game and then we just got really huge. And then we offer I don't know, I think it was like 500 opportunities a year and what opportunities are. That's kind of what I did. I mean, that was my main thing. I kind of ran that area and I go out there and make deals with festivals. I get slots on festivals. You know all the big ones and small ones.

Lou Plaia: 20:17

We would do A&R for like 20 something labels, I believe, curating music and sending them our favorites. Our A&R team would do that for them. And you know stuff that artists can't do on their own. They're not paying to submit. You know we weren't one of those companies where it's paid to possibly get something. Pay to play sucks. Pay to possibly play is even worse. But there's still companies that do it. But I think we were. You know, we were the first Facebook app for musicians back in 2000,. Whatever was seven or eight. So we were the first people to do that. We were very innovative. It's a place you could do almost everything. That's what Reverb Nation's all about, and I think a lot of companies like CD Baby does a lot of that, but they don't do opportunities. Sonic Bids does opportunities but doesn't do anything else. We did everything.

Matt Ebso: 21:05

Sure. So you just gathered all these different pieces and put them together, wrangled them all together.

Lou Plaia: 21:09

Yeah, and we knew areas where we weren't good at. We know we're not a distributor, so we partnered with a distribution company like one of the big ones. So when your music is being distributed by Reverb Nation, it's actually being distributed by the same people who distribute a lot of major label artists, believe it or not. Same thing with publishing administration. We don't know how to do that stuff, so we partnered with a giant music publishing company. So when you're using publishing administration on Reverb Nation, you actually got a real publishing company doing it for you. I think Reverb Nation is centric and I believe Fuga did the distribution.

Matt Ebso: 21:43

OK, gotcha, so you've managed to put all these different relationships that your company has and utilize them, or rather, put them as tools in front of the artist so they can utilize those relationships too. Exactly, that's beautiful. I think that's the you, with Reverb Nation, have probably achieved, with a lot of independent music entrepreneurs have been trying to do so.

Lou Plaia: 22:09

That's awesome, yeah it was good, Good run. 16 years and it's still going. Nothing's changed. I'm just not there.

Matt Ebso: 22:15

You're just not part of it. Well, and that's. You know that's probably good for you and, like your personal life too, it's probably good to enter a new phase. It is so in that new phase. I know you can't tell us about the company yet, but you'll be working A&R, right? Yeah, what does? Just to fill us uneducated folk in about A&R what is the role of A&R at a company and, like, what are they doing to get artists to the next level?

Lou Plaia: 22:46

Sure, I mean A&R. People are. A lot of people think of them as just people who go out and find a band out of all and sign them, but they do a lot more than that. You know they're grouping that. You know they're taking that artist who might be an amazing artist, but the songs aren't. You know they may be, so they may sign that artist and then, you know, get them to collaborate with other artists. They'll hook them up with the right recording studio and produce. So they do a lot more than just, oh, I love this artist, I'm going to sign them, and I've never done A&R before. I mean, I've actually got a couple of bands signed, but I never. Actually, I don't know anything about the recording process.

Lou Plaia: 23:22

Oh, my role in the new company will probably be more of well, it's definitely going to be more of finding artists, getting them to join us, and we have other people that do all the work that I was just describing. You know creative collaborations, things like that. So I'll be looking for great artists that are not brand new. I mean, my job at the new company won't be, you know, an artist with 500 streams. You know I'll probably be looking. They want me to get more involved with artists that are, you know, 500,000 streams and above, which is so small. Artists, just not very, very small.

Matt Ebso: 23:59

Right, which makes a lot of sense.

Lou Plaia: 24:01

Because there's a lot of. There's probably thousands and thousands of I don't want to say baby bands, but emerging artists that have a million streams and you know labels that have never even heard of them.

Matt Ebso: 24:12

Sure, well, and like you said, you know you have to have some traction already. You have to have some proof that if, if the labels of business, the business has to be profitable, so the business, the label, has to bring on bands that will help them to make a profit and then, ultimately, the, the relationship has to be mutually beneficial, right, exactly.

Lou Plaia: 24:33

Because it's changed, like in the old days. You know, when I was in Atlantic, for instance, we would have and I don't remember what year, mid 90s, I guess. Looking at my plaques I don't know when, but it's a I got a hoodie and the blowfish plaques somewhere. But you know, we we may have had a really bad year of, you know, 200 artists losing money, but we had hoodie and the blowfish, 15 million records sold or whatever. That funded everybody and kept everybody's jobs, and that that's always the case, probably in a lot of businesses, where there are a select few that will allow you to take risks on other bands. You know we were still able to sign all these bands that we thought were great and you know they just never went anywhere. But we were able to do that and nobody got fired because we had hoodie, hoodie and the blowfish. Money was bringing in millions. I'm just using them as an example.

Matt Ebso: 25:20

But it was. It was true. It's almost like a healthy investment strategy where like you don't want to put every single one of your hard earned dollars on Dogecoin right. Yep.

Matt Ebso: 25:35

You gotta you gotta spread things out a little bit, you gotta. You gotta get some bonds, you gotta get some stocks, maybe a little crypto and like, within all that, you gotta diversify. So it makes sense that, like, some things are gonna do well and some things are. That's just how the world works, exactly. But when one group does really well, it can help all the other groups on that label. Yep, as opposed to an independent band having two bad years and going well, we're out of money, see you guys? Exactly. So what would you say is the most important lesson you've learned over your career so far?

Lou Plaia: 26:12

Yeah, I mean, I just think. I just think being honest and just being nice to people, I feel like you know I've always, I always tried to be nice. You know I didn't lie to anyone. I tell artists up front that you know we're not gonna make you stars and maybe my, maybe my, the way I was brought up. Being being honest gets you far. Get you far in my opinion.

Matt Ebso: 26:33

I don't know who said it, but there reminds me of the expression the toes you step on on the way to the top will be connected to the same ass as you kiss on the way back down.

Lou Plaia: 26:43

Yeah, I like that. I heard that recently. I don't know where I heard that from.

Matt Ebso: 26:46

What would you say is the most important personality trait or strength? Someone would need to be successful as a musician.

Lou Plaia: 26:55

I don't know if it's perseverance, I don't know if that's the right word. I mean, they got to have. They got to really believe in themselves and to also listen to others. So I guess that's two things, but believing themselves really. I know that also sounds kind of cheesy, but you know an artist can't, they shouldn't fake it. You're a 40 year old male. You shouldn't be doing silly little pop love songs about like, like you're a teenager. There's too many people listening to you that realize you're faking it.

Matt Ebso: 27:24

It's interesting. Yeah, they can kind of see through the facade. I think so yeah.

Lou Plaia: 27:29

I mean, at least me. I like artists that are genuine. I guess it doesn't matter for some people. Some people might just like the beat, or you know, whatever it is, I personally, like you know, I like, I'm a lyric guy and you know, I like, I like, I like to believe in the artists. Yeah, I mean, there's still a lot of music I listen to that. I despise what the artists might stand for. So that's so. It's not a hundred percent the case all the time. What I'm saying I know, I just like to. I don't want to be faked.

Matt Ebso: 27:56

Sure, On that note pun intended. I guess, who are you listening to now, Like who's in your current playlist? Oh wow.

Lou Plaia: 28:09

Well, I'm working with an artist called Kate Van Dorn I'll plug that All right. So I think she's very genuine. She's got that dark side, almost like Nick Cave-ish coming from a great female voice, and so I liked I like a lot of the dark sounds. So I'm listening to her, I'm listening to. Actually, I'm starting to listen to a lot more dark stuff, like Nick going back to Nick Cave and that type of stuff again, probably because I'm working with her.

Lou Plaia: 28:40

I don't, I don't like a lot of the stuff. You know, people look at me as a. They always think I'm a metal guy. I don't like the new metal, I like old school metal. You know, like Pantera is as hard as I go. I love Pantera Metallica. So I don't know I'm I still I don't listen to a lot of new stuff. To be honest, why do you think that is? It's not because it's not good. I don't want to say it's not good, it's just I guess I'm just as I've gotten older, I'm just more into maybe mellower stuff. I mean, I'm listening to Spotify all the time. I feel like I'm always fast forwarding to the next song. I'm like why don't you know? I just can't find a lot of stuff that I like.

Matt Ebso: 29:16

Do you think that inhibits your abilities at all working at these companies that are focused on Promoting music?

Lou Plaia: 29:26

no, because I think I'm. I think you have to look at it two ways. So I think I have my personal tastes and I have stuff that I think is gonna make the company successful. Like, say, in my A&R role, I'm gonna go out there and sign a ton of stuff that I probably don't personally listen to, guys don't like, but if I see something that's just like amazing, you know, to me a hit is a hit. I guess my old boss, jason Plum, always say a hit is a hit is a hit.

Lou Plaia: 29:49

Doesn't matter what genre you like, you can tell a hit and you can tell a star. The only major stars out there are, like you know, they're 11s and not 10s. You tell a star. You can have a great song, you can be gorgeous if that's what you're into or whatever, but you still have to be that star power thing and I want to. I want to go out there and find stars, whether I, whether I'm into that or not. I don't know anything about country music, but I know I'm gonna know that amazing country song, an amazing singer or something like that, whether it's, whether it's what I like or not so what are some of those characteristics that you are looking for or you're identifying?

Matt Ebso: 30:27

to Categorize, like somebody has like okay, not star material or star material. What's the differentiator there? How do you qualify that?

Lou Plaia: 30:37

No, I feel like it's a feeling like it's like, if I'm looking at an artist that it's just like Totally wowing me, where I can't like, I can't stop staring and listening and I don't want it to ever end. The he or she may be just standing in front of their microphone, it's just blowing me away with the voice and the lyrics. And on the other cases there might be someone who just I was. I was managing a band a few years ago that the, the band was just incredible. I mean, this girl was all over the stage and she was just a total rock star and she had that rock star, you know, ability to just like. Everyone was like holy shit. You know to go with the great voice and everything else, and To me that's what people are looking for. I don't think anybody wants someone who's just can sing, or it looks pretty or, you know, is handsome or whatever. I think you have that, the whole thing all those in one like Billy Eilish.

Lou Plaia: 31:29

I mean she's reaching so many audiences with her music, she's got something to. I mean she's just like just looking at her and listening to her and watching her move and sing and her lyrics. You know, I don't even, I don't even love it, but to me it's like well, I think people can see that she's got something just by spending 10 minutes with her and listening with her, listening to her sure.

Matt Ebso: 31:49

Well, that makes sense. It's, there's a Music's an emotional, it has to invoke some sort of emotional response, I guess from yeah, even the professionals to consider it exact and I sort of banned a couple weeks ago.

Lou Plaia: 32:03

Really young man I think had to be like 17 and I was not expecting them to sound like they did. They were amazing. But the singer literally literally stood there with his hand in his pocket the whole time. He couldn't move. He was like shell shocked and that you know. Hopefully that'll go away over time. I'm like, wow, this is so good. I mean I couldn't believe it was coming from this young band, but to me that band is not gonna ever go anywhere unless he gets that hand out of his pocket and gets away from the microphone. Sure, he just say he was almost, he looks scared and that and that you can fix that and especially since he's a kid.

Matt Ebso: 32:38

Well, that makes sense. I mean he's gonna have the confidence because, yeah, you got to feel like there is something happening on stage that like it's it's miraculous to experience, like there's something magical, mystical about it, almost. Yeah, yeah we're like if the whole time you're watching somebody on stage who is terrified to be there, instead of feeling wowed by the music the whole time you're going. Oh man, I hope he's okay. Yeah, exactly.

Lou Plaia: 33:06

Exactly, and there's some. There's some you know great a and r guys out there through the years and guys and girls who saw an artist that may have been like that, just scared and, but but they heard something, maybe in the voice or the vocal or the music. Maybe the person wrote their own songs and they might sign them. I think previously I said a and r people. Just look at the numbers. There are still some that there's still some artists that gets signed with no followers. I know I know one particular a couple years ago, but there are some or a and our guys who still do that, probably the exception rather than the rule, though.

Lou Plaia: 33:37

Oh, absolutely, and they'll tell you that you know they're. Most of them will say it's all about the numbers. If they don't, they're lying.

Matt Ebso: 33:46

To try to probably get somebody on board. Yeah, exactly so. I guess that leads me to an interesting question. I think maybe some of the reason that some people say, oh, I'll never be on a label or I'm not interested in label, it's because they've heard so many horror stories about getting somebody getting signed and then oh and like all their record earnings to that company for the next 20 years and like never being able to pay that off. I mean, is that still Common does? Is that something that people need to be concerned about and aware of, or is that pretty much gone by the wayside with the More transparent practices like you're talking about? How cautious do artists need to be when signing?

Lou Plaia: 34:28

with a label, I mean, I think. I think because even artists know what they're worth nowadays and they should know. They at least they consult with an attorney or something like that and they have leveraged. The more you know, the more streams you have, the better deal you're gonna get. I mean, if you go in there with you have no file, you know, you're just an unknown, completely unknown, you're probably not gonna get a great deal and, yeah, you might not be making money for a while.

Lou Plaia: 34:53

I was always on the artist side of things. When they get asked to sell tickets to their own show or where they get paid no money Especially where I live in New York, in the island, it's always a pay-to-play type thing. You got to pay the club to sell a certain amount of tickets and all some stuff. And I was always on the artist side until I got to realize these artists go, they've go to perform and they have like three fans in the audience. Well, why are? Why should a club pay them thousand bucks If they're just not worth like more than $30? So I kind of took the side of Both. You know, yes, they're there to entertain you. I mean, if it's a restaurant, you should pay that band, regardless of who shows up, because they're entertaining the restaurant. But if it's a real music club and you can't bring in anybody One, you shouldn't have gotten booked. So I guess it goes two ways the talent buyer at the club should not have booked you To. You shouldn't be. You're not ready to play at certain clubs if you can't draw them. You know Two people, three people, and I see that all the time and I go to clubs and there's five people there. So I guess the word sets on the live side.

Lou Plaia: 36:00

I guess it translates over to the like, the streams and stuff like that's the same things like why would you expect Atlantic Records to sign you If you got nothing going on? Like nobody? You've had music after three years and you still can't get anybody to listen to it? We see that no one's playing it, no one's got following you. Gotta be, it's gotta be either bad or You've had absolutely no marketing behind you. You know you stopped it.

Lou Plaia: 36:29

Like I said, like we said at the beginning, even though you agree, you stopped to market it, otherwise you could still look like you suck, but even though you don't, so there's, it's a fine line. Yeah, I mean you have to invest in it. This is what you're gonna do for a living. You can't just put out great music, release it on Spotify and expect people to come to you. You've got to invest in it. You're a business, sure? You're gonna spend 10 grand on recording. You should also spend 10 grand on marketing. I don't know, I don't know where they come up with that, but that's what I always hear. I mean, too many bands spend all their money recording and there's nothing left to tell the world about.

Matt Ebso: 37:01

That great recording you made, and maybe that's a big factor in the now what conundrum I've seen so many times, as they go all right, I got three grand, I'm gonna spend it all on producing an awesome record, and then they get to the end of the process and they go now what cuz? They're out of money.

Lou Plaia: 37:16

Yeah, exactly, yeah, you know. All leads to what we first started talking about.

Matt Ebso: 37:20

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know I, while I had Heard that about the marketing side of thing and I've even talked to artists about that I hadn't really put it together that that might be part of the now what issue right there out of funds. So that's interesting. Yeah, what do you see coming down the pipeline in the future of music marketing that other people can't see yet? I Don't know.

Lou Plaia: 37:47

Maybe, maybe just like a I don't want to say a buy button, but some type of button, like if I'm listening to a Song on Spotify and maybe can I, can I just press the button that says you know, send me, can I don't? I guess she can donate Money, I don't know. I don't know. I don't really have any answer. I feel like I feel like everything is, I don't know, good question.

Matt Ebso: 38:07

That's a tough one. Well, maybe I'll rephrase it, so I'll make. I'll make it a little bit broader than music marketing specifically. What do you see coming down the pipeline for Independent artists in general that other people don't see yet?

Lou Plaia: 38:21

I Mean, I think I'm starting to see it now. There's a lot more companies offering like advances to these emerging artists. So it's not, it's not innovative, so it's already out there Like you can, and a lot of artists don't know about it. But they can join some of these companies where There'll be some type of algorithm company I'm working for, will be working for, will be doing this where you may only have, like safe, you know, 500,000 streams. It's worth something, so you, they may get you in advance on that, but you're just not going to make any money until the company recoups it, kind of just like a record deal. So I think you're gonna see a lot more of that. I know tune core does that now and there's a couple of companies that do that.

Lou Plaia: 39:01

Now. I don't I don't know if it's open for everybody, but I know there's certain bands that are getting like these smaller advances for that and I guess the bigger bands can do the same thing. You know, when you, when you've got this huge built-in audience already, you know maybe you don't need a record label anymore. See all these. You know classic rock bands or legacy bands I should say not classic rock legacy artists that you know they're. They're using distribution on companies like re-regnation and tune core and things like that, because they they keep 100% of the money. You know they pay. You know they pay their $10 to get their song up there on all the platforms and they get 100% of everything. But they could do that because they've already built that giant fan base and things like that. So maybe you'll see more of that. Maybe you'll see more Artists really doing it on their own, as opposed to just some.

Matt Ebso: 39:53

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there. So it you started by talking about what sounds to me almost like a mini record deal. It's like a mini advance. Yeah, payback, yep.

Lou Plaia: 40:05

Yeah, and it's based on them because it's I'm just just going by some of the companies that I know that do it. It's they want to. They don't want to take risks, so they're not going to give you a $10,000 advance If you've got 500,000 streams, because 500,000 streams is worth I don't know Whatever. It is 1500 bucks, I guess. What is it like? A million streams on Spotify has worked like $3,500, I believe, aside from the fact that that's ridiculous.

Matt Ebso: 40:31

I think it's there. I think it's 3,500. I'm pretty sure that's good to know the math, though.

Lou Plaia: 40:35

Yeah, it's like 0.035 or something like that per per stream. So if it's $3,500 for a million and there's a merging artist who's got a million streams, some company may give you an advance for 3,500, knowing that hopefully your next song will do the same. At least they'll break even. Worst case scenario. They break even. Well, I guess it could fail. So not the worst case scenario, but you know they hope that It'll do. The next song will do better and they get the money out of that.

Matt Ebso: 41:06

Well, and that sounds like a pretty big hurdle to Jump before getting a pretty small advance, to mean relatively speaking you know, at a certain point. What would be the advantages of something like that versus going to the bank and getting a personal loan?

Lou Plaia: 41:25

Um, it's a good question, but I think an artist, that I think an artist that might not even have like a real full-time gig, you know, maybe, maybe a you know part-time worker, because you know they need some money they might have. They might not be able to get a loan from a bank, first of all because they don't have Access to employment. You know you're a musician. I make, you know, 10 grand a year as a waiter or whatever, part-time because I need to go on the road Making 5,000 a year for the rest of the year as a musician. They might not be able to get a loan but it's better than. You know an artist. You know they're putting out their music on On the platforms and having no money left to market it. At least now you can have that. Maybe that 35 hundred dollars that that company's Giving you as an advance.

Matt Ebso: 42:06

Put that towards marketing that makes a lot of sense. So you know you're obviously going to continue to invest your own money as an emerging artist, but if somebody out there can see the value in what you've currently Established for yourself, then you may as well take advantage of that monetary opportunity. Exactly, exactly.

Lou Plaia: 42:26

And again it's all about leverage, like so, yes, a million, a million streams might only get you 3500, all that advance. But if you're an artist, that's got you know each song is going, you know, 500 000, next one's a million. You've got that progression. Um, maybe you can turn that advance much bigger. You know, go to a different type of company, not not one of these, press the button, see what my advance is going to be, type things, sure, um, you know that's when you should hopefully talk to some publisher and companies and some record labels.

Matt Ebso: 42:55

Let's see what you can get, just based on the progress you're making that makes a lot of sense, because if they can see that there's upward trajectory as opposed to just trusting that the algorithm's going to spit out a fair number, yeah, why not do that?

Lou Plaia: 43:08

And it's just like a business. So you're trying to sell your company. You know there better be some growth involved if you want a big payout. If it's not growing, you're just worth what you are. That day.

Matt Ebso: 43:19

So I know you can't tell us about the company you're going to work for, but without uh Telling us anything that you're prohibited by mda's, tell our audience where they could go to maybe look for some of those kinds of opportunities, those kind of advanced opportunities. I know, I think tunecore does it.

Lou Plaia: 43:34

Uh, centric does it. Um centric music publishing. I don't know if song Trust does it, I'm not sure who else I've only I've only literally saw it, heard hearing about it like over the past year. I know lyric financial is a company that does it. I think they do it for centric, but I'll give it up too much information of.

Matt Ebso: 43:55

But yeah, I'm pretty sure tunecore also does it okay, gotcha, is that something that's available to just anybody, or do they have to apply for such a thing?

Lou Plaia: 44:04

I don't know if it's available to anybody.

Matt Ebso: 44:07

Um the good good question, because if you got a hundred streams like, what's that worth? A couple pennies Probably, yeah.

Lou Plaia: 44:13

I mean they, I'm guessing that they, they don't want everybody in it. Um, they'll just pick and choose. You know, they're almost like vet, these artists themselves, like I don't know if they'll actually be a press. You know, press the button thing, like I was saying. Yeah but maybe there is. Maybe maybe one day there's a press the button to see what I'm worth type thing, huh, which would be kind of cool.

Matt Ebso: 44:32

Be, you didn't have a very advanced algorithm for that, I'm sure because they're like you said there are some of those Intangibles going back to the accountants. They don't understand why you'd spend, you know, hundred, two hundred dollars on a haircut.

Lou Plaia: 44:43

Right, exactly, exactly, and then and then on the other, so yeah, so you press the button, it spits out that you're worth five thousand dollars and then, meanwhile, the company that did this doesn't realize that all those, all those streams that they're basing that on, were all fake, all bots. Yeah, so the company gets screwed that way, you know. So you got to be careful. There's got to be this still has to be human involvement, a&r.

Matt Ebso: 45:09

That has to be sure somebody to screen it all interesting. Well, I'll be curious to see how that develops over time. Yeah, me too, definitely. The second part of your answer about the future for the music marketing was you said there are some bigger artists who are now just going to the diy platforms because it's cheaper for them to release their music that way and they already have the reputation. Yeah, never thought about that, but that's, it's brilliant.

Lou Plaia: 45:35

Yeah, I mean, um, the one company I know, one RPM. I don't know if you're familiar with them. What was it? One RPM? Yes, some of these companies are signing these legacy acts because you know they'll pay 10% distribution or something like that, as opposed to you know 85% for the labels and then they still make their money Selling you know selling these, doing festivals and things like that, so you really need to pay. You know, at a record label, they're probably getting 15 to 20% royalty. When they're going through a distributor, one of these aggregators you know Reformation, any one of these companies, they're keeping, you know, 90 to 100%.

Matt Ebso: 46:15

So it's kind of a no-brainer at that point for those artists.

Lou Plaia: 46:17

It is. It is if they don't need the expertise in the marketing. To me it's a no-brainer. You know they got a manager who got them to that level that they probably know everything.

Matt Ebso: 46:27

So they probably they might continue to work with their manager on like a private level and yeah continue to utilize the team that they've built. Obviously, yeah exactly.

Lou Plaia: 46:36

You still need to promote. You still need the booking guy. He's gonna, you know, chart, take his 10% and the manager who's gonna take the 15-20%, but there's no longer the label that's taking that 85% right, because it's not like you can just say all right, well, I'm doing it all on my own now.

Matt Ebso: 46:52

Thanks for the Thanks for the cloud guys. No, no, no, you can't do that. Still need a team behind it, especially at that tier. Yeah well, we've been chatting for a while, so I have a couple wrap up questions for you. Um, and I've been asking everybody these same couple of questions and every time I get interesting results, so I'm gonna start with this one. What question do you wish I would have asked and how would you have answered it?

Lou Plaia: 47:25

I love that question. I'm going to ask that to some people. I wish you would have asked me if I would have done anything different in my career, if I would have chosen a different career, especially with my finance background finance major. My answer would be no. I love 30 years in this business. I loved it. I'm so lucky. To me it's the greatest business in the world. I'm talking to you in my pajamas, practically. I went to work like this for 30 years. I also think that nobody works harder than the people in the music business, because I know we work from 9 in the morning to 2 or 3 or 4 in the morning every night of the week. Yes, a lot of that was fun. Absolutely, going to shows is work, but it's fun. To me it was the greatest life move I ever made because I forgot to tell you, my first year out of college I was a stock broker. For one year.

Matt Ebso: 48:25

Okay, I'm starting to see some connections here.

Lou Plaia: 48:28

Yeah, a long-haired guy now I have no hair, but a long-haired guy in a suit was not selling many stocks.

Matt Ebso: 48:36

You figured you sell some songs instead.

Lou Plaia: 48:38

Yeah, exactly.

Matt Ebso: 48:40

I love it. What one piece of advice would you leave our listener with?

Lou Plaia: 48:47

Just do what you love but have a backup plan. Doing what you love doesn't always happen, but you can make it happen if you really put your heart and soul into it and everything else In case it doesn't, especially if you have a family or something like that. If you're older and you have a family, you might need a backup plan because the money in this business really sucks at the beginning, but it could be really really powerful at the end where you could support many families.

Matt Ebso: 49:17

That brings up several responses in my mind. I've heard some people will say don't make backup plans because that means you're planning for failure. Right, then I've also. You hear about some of the best artists who spent most of their early career grinding, working on their songs and promoting and just doing everything on their own, and then working at Starbucks at the day.

Lou Plaia: 49:43

Yeah, like the music industry people, most of them are failed musicians. That was kind of their backup plan.

Matt Ebso: 49:52

They are, you look around.

Lou Plaia: 49:54

Most of the people in the music industry were in a band, or maybe not. They could have been a cover band, whatever they love music. Most of them were in some type of band and I guess their backup plan was to at least learn the business. If I couldn't make money on the road or couldn't make money as a musician, it would be amazing that I get to work in the music business. That's why I tell bands to learn the music business as much as they can.

Lou Plaia: 50:19

I speak at a lot of conferences. I also teach at a music school. I tell them I say, listen, 99% of you are not going to make a living doing what you're here for. I said, but you could become a booking agent or you could become an accountant at a record label and still at least be in that moment, at least the feel that you love. Have some kind of backup plan. I don't mean have a backup plan that says, all right, if I'm a failed musician, I want to become a carpenter. I don't necessarily mean that, Sure, Look at all the artists that were. They love to perform, but they just bad performers or something like that. Now they're hit songwriters for other people and vice versa. I don't know if it was Marin Morris, but there's a couple of people who were out there that were songwriters before they became artists, Some big ones recently.

Matt Ebso: 51:05

So maybe another way to put a spin on that would be develop a variety of skills.

Lou Plaia: 51:11

Yeah, I mean, if you love music, stay in that field but try to educate yourself so maybe you can fall into the music business side of it. Just in case, Sure.

Matt Ebso: 51:21

Makes total sense. Well, this has been awesome. Where can people find you online? Well, I'm an old guy, I like Facebook, Instagram 12 cases.

Lou Plaia: 51:31

It's LuPlaia, L-O-U-P-L-A-I-A. Linkedin for any business type stuff, Again L-O-U-P-L-A-I-A.

Matt Ebso: 51:40

Cool. Is there anything in particular you want to promote at the moment?

Lou Plaia: 51:45

I'm working with an artist, Kate Van Dorn. New single probably be coming out first single probably be coming out, hopefully in April, May latest. Really really cool, amazing voice, great artist, Real artist, not just like a real artist. That's all I got to promote. I can't promote my new company because I can't say it yet Understandable.

Matt Ebso: 52:06

Well, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Lou Plaia: 52:11

Thank you, I really appreciate it, thanks for having me.

Matt Ebso: 52:19

Thank you so much for tuning in to episode four of After the Master of Musicians Guide. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. If you want to connect with Lou, check out the links in the show notes on your podcast app For more behind the scenes and exclusive content. Follow us on Instagram at After the Master, have thoughts to share or a killer guest suggestion. Shoot and email to matt@ afterthemaster. com. You can also connect with me via voice message or text at 612-712-6708. Remember to hit the subscribe button to be notified when we release upcoming episodes. Lastly, if you enjoyed this episode, please help me out by sharing it with a friend or by leaving a five-star review on your podcast app to tell the algorithm that our show is worth hearing. Either option takes less than a minute and it could potentially have a huge impact for an aspiring artist's music career. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, stay in tune with your dreams and I'll catch you on the flip side.